Raleigh mall melee: A new lens into the way others see Durham?

This weekend’s melee at Triangle Town Center in north Raleigh – a reportedly gang-related brawl involving as many as 200 youth – left, thankfully, few injuries.

One boy was stabbed in the buttocks by a butterfly knife; a Raleigh law enforcement officer received lacerations and had to be treated at a Raleigh hospital.

To me, though, the last cuts and bruises may well be the dark underbelly of class and race that the fight exposed. They’re cuts and bruises that tell me something about the nature of the perception divide in the Triangle, and about the undercurrent of fear that underlies so many assumptions that neighboring communities make about the Bull City.

Durham has a slightly larger population in poverty, and a larger number of youth at-risk to join gangs or become involved in crime. And all too often, the stories we hear involving crime and, to quote the Herald-Sun, “gangland mayhem” revolve around Durham as a result.

Durhamites have become well-accustomed to the Internet sniping that results, with online message boards lighting up with comments like “Glad I don’t live in Durham!” and calls for National Guard troops to step in to bring peace to the “war-torn” streets of the Bull City. Underlying much of it as been a not-so-subtle insinuation that Durham’s population demographics, which include a healthy representation of white, black and Latino residents, somehow are causal for crime in Durham.

Comments like these have long left folks who love Durham scratching our collective heads. After all, as we’ve talked about the national crime statistics, which demonstrate a community much safer than its regional and national peers. We’ve talked about local crime data, which show the role of poverty over all others in explaining the causal roots of crime.

And through it all, many Durhamites come away feeling that the external visceral dislike we sometimes get as a community has less basis in a reality of social science and government data, and more in the unease that some seem to feel about persons who look, or earn, or dress differently than them.

All of which sets the table for a tet-a-tet, back and forth sniping between the two communities, a rather counter-productive exercise in image-making and image-bashing, it seems.

Yet the Triangle Town Center incident provides, for me at least, a new lens into the dis-ease and dislike that many who aren’t from Durham, and who don’t understand Durham, make about our home city.

Let me state the following up front: the examples below aren’t things that I intend to reflect directly on residents of the communities immediately neighboring the Triangle Town Center. They reflect instead, more importantly to me, the generally pervasive attitude of many who don’t (for instance) understand why living in a diverse community is an important thing, or valuable thing, in the eyes of many.

Naturally, the message boards at WRAL, NBC 17, the N&O, etc., have been filled with angry rhetoric today – some of which crosses blatantly into the territory of racism. I’m far more interested, however, in the kind of comments that comes from seemingly more reasonable people frustrated over having an event like Saturday’s brawl occur in or near their communities.

Their comments strike me as more significant simply because they do lack the vitriol, and because I think in many cases, they’re held by a non-trivial number of individuals who live in suburban and exurban communities. And I think they represent the mentality that has led too many communities to close their door to affordable housing, to offering social services, to creating a balance between the wealthy and the middle-class and the poor –- an imbalance that creates disproportionately challenged communities.

The comments I’ve been interested in come from City-Data, a popular web forum that discusses the pros and cons of states, cities and towns nationwide. The board has been inflamed in debate over the root causes of the mall brawl, with many of the ideas for remedying the situation suggesting concepts that would seem antithetical, I presume, to much of what many Durhamites think:

"Why would anyone be so presumptious to assume the race/ethnicity of those involved?? The article said nothing about this. In this day and age, the father figure is absent from many homes - race not being a factor."

Reply: "I think people are assuming this due to the fact that overwhelming super majority of the people patronizing TTC on the weekends belong to a certain race, so they were just applying logic. I doubt it will be mentioned in the papers or TV - not now or EVER - so the PP was simply making an educated guess."

"I may not be PC in saying this, but I believe one step may be the systematic elimination of affordable housing. Unfortunately, poverty breeds crime and gangs."

Reply: "That's what I'm thinking. Where should I live if affordable housing is eliminated. Not everyone down here is wealthy, or even comfortable enough for one of the shiny new 250K neighborhoods. There are many pleasant families and pretty homes in the 100 to 180K neighborhoods that need some sort of plan to protect them from gang development."

"Am I the only one not too pleased with the new "Wake Forest Loop" bringing bus service to/from WF to TTC....."

Reply: "You're not the only one. I want to live as far as possible from bus service, and I don't care who is offended by it. I don't need a bus, and I don't want anyone to take the bus to my house. And frankly, I would just as soon shop and play at a bus-fee location too."

Reply: "The big wheels in WF toot it like its the best thing to happen to WF in years - I respectfully disagree... Like it or not - the area around TTC has a lot of issues, and we don't need it creeping up Capital Blvd."

"No offense but I don't have time for "utopian ideas". Tomorrow morning I have to wake up, got to work, provide for my family, and insure that they are SAFE. I'd rather focus on absolute truth. If you choose to turn a blind eye to it, thats your right."

"It isn't racism, it's classism but it's also a realistic approach to curbing the problem."

"I assume you mean section 8 housing when you say "affordable housing"? That kind of affordable housing will drive crime rate in Cary up and make parts of town undesirable. Why in the world would the town of Cary want to even consider building a community of section 8/affordable housing? I personally do not feel that a $180,000.00 home is anywhere near category of expensive housing. If someone cannot afford a home of that price, they should simply live elsewhere. Why should residents of a town, that have paid good money for a home have to deal with the trouble that "affordable housing" brings?"

"Stopping bus service won't prevent most customers from getting to the mall. Stopping bus service will prevent many teens from getting to the mall. This isn't hard to understand."

"Just because someone wants things put in place for safety of the public does not mean they are racist. I'm sure that whites, blacks, asians, mexicans, etc. want to feel safe at this mall. You evidently are the racist one for thinking this would be a racist decision to put in age restrictions and stop the bus service to this mall. It is a public safety concern. It has worked in some of the northern cities."

Incidentally, to that last point these comments came largely from transplants to the area: folks from places like New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts, to name three.

Why go to the trouble to reproduce these comments here? Because I think they're instructive in understanding the lens of so many individuals who hold negative attitudes towards the Bull City.

The language in these comments is filled with assumptions about the poor, and about crime -- but just as importantly, assumptions about what kind of society the middle class deserve.

To the minds of these commenters, there seems to be an unwritten societal right that one should be able to buy their way out of -- or at least away from -- poverty. One ought to be able to move to a certain community, it seems, and rest in comfort knowing that the poor cannot live there.

After all, heck, $180,000 sure is an affordable home! Can't pay that? Have to rent? Too bad, we don't want you. (Though we'd like you to come in to work at our fast-food restaurants. Be sure to have a car, though.)

Similarly, there's a clear theme in these comments that public transportation is somehow bad. It's the theme, I suspect, that kept malls and shopping centers (like Crabtree Valley, or more recently, Brier Creek) from trying to exclude buses. Buses, the theory seems to go, bring in those who might not be able to afford to get there themselves -- those who don't have the means to own a car, in this worldview.

Tying all of these together, though, is this sense that there is a moral desert to being able to separate oneself from the weight of society; that society's problems aren't necessarily something you want to have to deal with.

And there's this sense in the comments of the alien, the others, among those who don't resemble the posters here. They use buses; they live in Section 8 housing; they don't look like we do. There's no acknowledgment that, at the end of the day, these people

These folks seem to have met the enemy in society. But perhaps Pogo was right: We have met the enemy, and he is us.

The reason that so many people with this mindset dislike Durham -- and don't be lulled into thinking this is a small sliver of the population in many areas of this country -- is that Durham defies the worldview of the commenter.

Durham is a city that doesn't exclude the poor, either through economic barriers or through a disdain. Durham is busy building a network of care to ensure access to health care services at a time when communities in eastern Wake are trying to force higher home values as a way of bringing in a higher-income resident. Durham is committing to major investments in its city center when other communities are still stuck in a sprawl-oriented mindset.

Durham is, to me, a city where people still matter -- where so many people are generally committed to a greater good.

I don't think ill of the commenters above. I tend to think instead that they just represent the perpetuation of a long way of thinking in American life, one which dates at least to the civil rights era, and probably much longer. One that reflects deeply ingrained ways of thinking about class and race that represent deep-seated assumptions that are, on the macro rather than individual level, almost as noxious to the social fabric as the overt racism displayed in the South's unfriendly history.

We can't change everything; and, goodness knows, I'll wager this point of view is fairly common (though certainly not universal) among the BCR readership already. So perhaps I should close it on a more personal, less universal note.

I'll just chalk it up to being another reason I'm glad I live in Durham.

 

Comments

[GreenLantern]

I'm glad you posted this topic. I took time to read the comments on the Mall Brawl, the NC State shooting, and the one about the homicide arrest. I was looking for comments about how these things could only happen in Durham, or, were these gang members from Durham?, or TTC is too close to Durham....oh, wait, TTC is a bit farther away from Durham than Brier Creek...what gives? I guess we can't pick on Durham today, and so forth.

It's funny I didn't come across many of these snide comments. Maybe Raleighites are finally coming to grips that crime and gangs are everywhere, and bad parenting exists even in Raleigh. There were actually some good comments regarding mall security, materialism, parenting, and focusing on the city's problems that usually get hidden for fear of lowering "Best Places Ratings". I guarantee you these folks will have short memories as soon as a similar tragedy happens in the Bull City next week.

I think one reason Raleigh and Cary get away with low crime statistics relative to Durham is how they, and a few other NC cities annex wealthier developments into the city limits to skew the statistics more favorably. Ever notice how Raleigh, Greensboro, Cary, & Charlotte avoid scooping up the lower income, more racially-diverse areas of their respective counties? Maybe it's a stretch, but this tactic puts cities like Richmond, who are prevented further annexations by law, at a great disadvantage. Anyway, that's how I look at the maps as the cities have grown. Something's got to be up, when a city grabs parcels six times farther away from downtown than parcels to its southeast. Even Richmond did the same thing back in the '70s when it annexed a chunk of rural Chesterfield County when there were built up areas (mostly black) to the NE.

[Geoff Green]

One issue that I think relevant is the decentralized and increasingly suburban nature of the triangle. It is so very easy these days for someone to live in some new development built in the last few years, shop in the brand-new strip malls and malls that are given fanciful names like New Hope Valley Commons, drive to their job in new office parks planted in a new corner of suburbia, and spend their weekends visiting farmers' markets and restaurants in these same shopping centers and riding the greenways connecting their new development with other new developments. They start to think that the new, safe, upper-middle-class existence they've found is nothing special, and that there's something wrong and a bit dangerous with those other places where bad things happen. There's no public transportation to speak of in these scattered developments (frankly, it almost looks like they were designed so there *can't* be any, so the concept that people might want or need to go places without using a private car appears strange and disturbing. It's what suburbia has wrought.

I really like Durham; well, the actual city of Durham, not those overgrown apartment complexes that stretch around the big-box stores and that mall with the pretentious name of "The Streets of Southpoint." It's a shame so much of the rest of the triangle has developed in a non-walkable, non-urban fashion.

[Andrew Edmonds]

>> After all, heck, $180,000 sure is an affordable home! Can't pay that? Have to rent? Too bad, we don't want you. (Though we'd like you to come in to work at our fast-food restaurants. Be sure to have a car, though.)

Nice line. Makes me think of the San Francisco school teachers who can only afford housing two hours outside of town.

A bus line. Man, I'd love a bus line near me. I live off University between Hope Valley and Forest Hills. Fat chance, though, of getting a bus to drive down the busiest road in this part of town.

[Derek]

Outstanding post, Kevin.

>> To the minds of these commenters, there seems to be an unwritten societal right that one should be able to buy their way out of -- or at least away from -- poverty. One ought to be able to move to a certain community, it seems, and rest in comfort knowing that the poor cannot live there.
<<

Re:the note above, you're right on the money. I had two thoughts: 1)Gated communities. Governor's Club anyone? And 2)Isn't that what interstates, suburbs, and white flight have been about for decades? Both North and South, I'm afraid. The trouble is, it just isn't sustainable forever, especially when gas hits $4+/gallon.

[David Rollins]

I'd like to point out the obvious problem with shootings and gang violence in shopping centers, schools, courthouses, etc. These are "gun-free" zones.

Under NC law a private business is free to prohibit the legal carrying of concealed weapons. Northgate does this, for example -- I don't know about TTC. I might suggest they follow the example of Texas and other states that consider the carrying of concealed weapons by law-abiding citizens to be a basic right. You don't see many shootings at malls in Texas.

[Jeff]

If I recall, you live in TP. Real diverse, huh? Not to beat a dead horse, because I, too, wanted to see this story in the same light you do, but I think the real story should be that this kind of stuff (troubled youth) happens everywhere. Why do you insist on comparing Durham/Raleigh/Cary? (And why, do you read those comments. What do you hope to learn? Well, here's another anon comment for you.)

Not that I know any of these people, but I'd be willing to bet that the people who live in Hope Valley Farms in Durham share more in common with people who live in the Martha Stewart neighborhood in Cary than with the young renovators/neighborhood revitalizers in Cleveland/Holloway. White flight happened/s everywhere. North/South/East/West.

I really don't want to live around the kind of person that buys a cheesy house in Hope Valley Farms. I'd rather live around a bunch of nutty, progressive liberal, gay lovin', lacrosse hatin', organic eatin' freaks. But, do I want to live next to some redneck selling crystal meth? No. Do I want to live next to a guy with no job and twenty friends who come by all hours of the night with loud cars? No. No wonder a 3 bedroom/2 bath house on Engelwood in Watts/Hillandale just listed for 355,000! Most people in Durham agree with me. I wonder what you could buy in East Durham for that amount of money?

[Barry]

" I might suggest they follow the example of Texas and other states that consider the carrying of concealed weapons by law-abiding citizens to be a basic right. You don't see many shootings at malls in Texas."

I don't recall reading that anyone got shot in Raleigh on Saturday night. I'm trying to picture the scene if three or four "law-abiding citizens" who happened to be carrying concealed weapons in a crowded mall decided on Saturday night to use them.

How many people do you think might have died in that scenario?

[David Rollins]

I'm not sure I understand the premise of your question. If a law-abiding citizen used a concealed weapon without there being threat of imminent loss of life they would be guilty of a Class C felony under NC General Statute § 14‑32. In NC there is a "duty to flee" which would apply in the situation of a shopping mall.

[GreenLantern]

A good example of an extreme situation of decentralization of US cities, and the urban poverty and suburban sprawl that resulted, is the city of Cleveland. There was a recent TV documentary (PBS??) that chronicled how one of the top five populous and wealthiest cities of the early 20th century became a blueprint of urban decay and suburban sprawl. As the city grew in wealth and the US became a car-centric civilization, the wealthy population of Cleveland started moving to leafy, quiet suburbs with their manicured lawns and shopping centers with loads of free parking. Industry survived for a while in the city proper, with most of the working class within walking distance or with public transportion. This was a case where public transporation began to isolate the working class from their suburban co-workers who could afford cars. Public transportation became more and more class and race segregated due to changing demographics--not just institutional racism. A distinct class segregation, mostly along racial and ethnic lines began to develop from white migration to the suburbs, which in turn led to a decline in inner-city schools and businesses. Once these suburbs became established, residents fought against any industrial development that could serve to bring along the working class poor, the crime, and the underperforming schools that often resulted.

The documentary also pointed out that even the initial suburbs began to decline in the later half of the 20th century as more and more economically mobile families decided to move onto the next new suburb. Perhaps they were getting tired of the mid-century architecture, or perhaps some of the working class were beginning to invade their once-safe enclaves. Who knows...but with loads of cheap farmland, non-existant comprehensive planning, and new four-lane highways to the country, the trend continued. As each suburb grew up, new towns were incorporated to fend off annexation threats by Cleveland. As Cleveland's socio-economic problems grew and industry declined, the only way for the city to sustain public investment was to raise property taxes, or annex and levy new ones. As new towns incorporated around the original belt of suburbs, the process in the first suburban belt started all over again, manifested by increasing numbers of "dead" malls, economic malaise, and increasing crime. The newer suburbs just saw the old suburbs as old Cleveland proper, and with the same growing problems....probably how Rougemont sees Durham no doubt.

I could go on and on using this example in most every city in America, with the exception of Portland OR, where there is actually a real effort to stem the tide of suburban sprawl--albeit to the skyrocketing price of home ownership. I hear it's not going as well as they planned due to the popularity of the place.

Whether you have liberal or restrictive annexation laws, you just forestall the same voluntary socio-economic separation with the liberal policy. Raleigh is seeing some of this now, where once desireable exurban and inner suburban neighborhoods quickly lose favor to the next best development five miles up the road, or those nestled up against Jordan Lake in far western Wake county, surrounded by forest and seemingly isolated from potential criminal activity. Plop down a few brand new shiny schools, paid for by all county taxpayers, that are far enough away from the poorer areas, and you have instant prosperity!

Part of the problem, even here in Durham, is the increasing gentrification of urban housing. It's not just the working class poor who can't afford housing inside the beltline or in Trinity Park, it's those of us making the median salary of $55K or so that can't afford to buy a house over $250K by themselves. There are very few nowadays below $350K around Duke or along Club Blvd (they all still need more work BTW!) Suburbs offer new contstruction at an affordable price more most of us. I'm afraid that is going to continue to be the case.

As far as a bus line to my subdivision in east Durham county, you can forget it! RTP is ten minutes away by car from where I live..."I ain't takin' no dirty bus to the center of town, riding along with crack dealers, that takes an hour to get where I'm going"....BTW, that's NOT how I look at, but I guarantee you that's how most suburbanites see it. It's also how Brier Creek and some other suburban shopping malls like Triangle Towne Center see the downside of public transporation. Their shopping centers are designed for people who can afford cars, and live in nice houses, who can afford to buy what they're selling, and NOT for the poor working class who just want to loiter around and cause trouble......again, it's not my personal view, but that's the way it is, and it's just so hard to change perceptions around here...

Believe me, Jeff, I probably have a lot more in common with you in terms of who I would want to live next to. However, I don't have a PHD, nor a salary approaching that which is required to buy some nice old house with "character" in TP or Duke Park. I didn't get in on the new urbanism trend soon enough, I'm afraid. Places like Hope Valley and Grove Park are cheap by comparison, and that's all most of us can afford and still not fear for our lives at night.

[KH]

Wow Kevin...the comments that you quoted show that ignorance transcends socio-economic boundaries.

Observation #1: The Herald-Sun had a long article on the front of the Metro section about the current play-by-play of some criminals that were apprehended a long time ago. I'm sure this really helps Northgate remain a viable locally-owned business. The TTC Mall Brawl was a short article on the second page. If this WAS a brawl of 200 people, that's news worthy. [Front page headline if it happened in Durham - "Bloody melee ensues at Northgate Mall"]

Observation #2: People in Raleigh (and yes...in Durham too) do not attempt to understand the root causes of the problem. A lot of people in Durham say "Just lock them all up!!!" Let's remember just as the issues with a lot of these kids has festered over time...the decisions that we make today will also come back to haunt us.

The kids that we lock up today will be the jobless convict when he is released. They will be further indoctrinated into a "family" system (i.e. gangs) that will be hard to relinquish. In order to feed himself, he may have to break into some homes in Hope Valley...he may have to rob some people on Duke's campus.

I am definitely not saying that people should not pay for crimes...We should all be doing something to help those less fortunate than us. Hire some of these kids and then mentor them. Make them conform to the dress codes...They might provide better service than some of these other people that I come across day-to-day. In other words, don't just cast them off and look at them crazy for dressing and/or talking different (even the ones who dress and talk "right" are looked down upon too).

This is only a very simple answer but this is not the forum to try to hash out all of the potential problems/solutions. In other words, "To whom much is given...more is expected."

"...get rid of affordable housing" --- Man...that is the most ignorant thing that I have ever heard!!! That shows that it doesn't take intelligence to succeed in life. So what does it take...????

[Kevin Davis]

Interesting comments, all.

To Jeff and GL: TP has a strong corner of wealth and high property values in its southwestern corner and, to a lesser extent, along the northern Watts/Dollar spine. It's not -- yet -- out of economic reach, though, even at the $55k price range.

The house my wife and I bought three years back sold at a price that would be affordable to someone at that $55k salary (our mortgage payment is the same as rent on a North Durham apartment we rented previously.) An 800 sq. ft. house on Duke just went under contract at $125k; there are two others listed at around $150k right now.

There are similar pockets of opportunity on Woodland, Ruffin, Knox, Green, and Markham.

Of the six houses I consider neighboring, three are owner-occupied, three are rentals. Neighbors include a 90-year-old woman who's lived on Duke since it was a dirt road; an RTP worker; a public health nurse; an attorney; a man working in the video gaming industry; and an electrician.

Now, I'm not holding up a torch to sing Kumbaya about the neighborhood, either. There is an undercurrent of debate I've perceived in the neighborhood, with some folks wanting to push to maintain affordable, quality rental properties as well as affordable starter homes. I suspect there are others who'd like to see gentrification occur sooner than later and raise general property values.

I've wondered what the community's reaction would be if, say, Lou Goetz were to make one or two of the townhouses he's building at Watts and Lamond affordable or subsidized rental units. The fact that I can't say what that reaction would be speaks to the dis-ease that exists on the question of class in even a place like TP.

(As always, I'm speaking for myself only here and not the TPNA.)

[KH]

@GreenLantern: Charlotte and Atlanta are prime examples of what you are stating.

In Charlotte, West Charlotte has steadily deteriorated. You have inner suburban areas such as Eastland Mall area that have shown steady decline. The City of Charlotte has continued to annex its way to South Carolina.

Atlanta can't annex but the unincorporated northern suburbs have been forming their own cities (Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, Milton, etc.). Atlanta is at the point where there commute is so terrible people are starting to move back into formerly "dangerous" neighborhoods. At the same time, parts of Gwinnett County (i.e. Jimmy Carter Blvd area) have seen an increase in crime and gang activity.

I told a friend who was upset that some questionable characters had moved into their quiet neighborhood, "Why move? This is YOUR neighborhood...They are temporary at best especially if you are vigilant in reporting possible illegal activities. If you move, somebody is going to be right behind you anyway." In other words, don't allow questionable tenants to take over your neighborhood.

Matter of fact get to know your neighbors better. Questionable tenants usually say stuff like "I can't stand these nosy neighborhoods...I can't wait til my lease is up." or "They think this neighborhood is perfect...I'm ready to move." (These are direct quotes minus expletives) A decent tenant will be embarrassed by lack of yard maintenance, etc.

@Kevin: There is no way that any of Mr. Goetz's townhomes will be anywhere close to affordable. It probably would have been a stretch with his previous plan. Density provides a better opportunity for mixed-income housing in an urban environment. Three-story townhomes...probably looking at $300K+ (conservative). There would have to be significant subsidies to make one or two units out of 14 affordable.

[Todd]

@Jeff: I'm not sure what you're basing your opinion on, but my single street in Hope Valley Farms has about equal proportion Caucasian, African-American, Hispanic, and Asian families. It may not have the "grittiness" that you're looking for, but it's certainly far from being a shining example of white flight to the suburbs.

[barry]

"I'm not sure I understand the premise of your question. If a law-abiding citizen used a concealed weapon without there being threat of imminent loss of life they would be guilty of a Class C felony under NC General Statute § 14‑32. In NC there is a "duty to flee" which would apply in the situation of a shopping mall."

Then exactly what difference does the "gun-free" status of the shopping mall have to do with anything? Why bring it up, except to attempt to make the point that knowing that none of their fellow shoppers is armed encourages hoodlums to behave improperly?

[Dan S.]

@ David Rollins: "You don't see many shootings at malls in Texas."

Oh? What about last Thanksgiving?

"Two people were shot to death in what police are calling a murder-suicide at a north Houston mall Tuesday morning.
Officials said shots were fired inside a store at Greenspoint Mall at about 10 a.m. The shooting occurred at Body Luxuries on the west side of the mall."

Concealed carry/open carry doesn't deter violent crime. If it did, Israel wouldn't have a problem with suicide bombers -- as every active duty soldier and reservist is mandated to carry their rifle, even when off-duty. Furthermore, most people are psychologically equipped to shoot another human being, much less properly trained to do so.
---

As for the "we don't want the kind of people that public transportation brings" mentality -- look at how well those attitudes served Atlanta and Georgetown. Atlanta's MARTA trains go North-South and East-West, barely touch affluent areas and are practically useless to most commuters, who instead get to spend hours in 10-15mph traffic on a daily basis, as MARTA trains run mostly empty, hemorrhaging cash. Georgetown told WMATA that it didn't want a Metro station because of the "dangerous element" that it would bring to the neighborhood, as such, it was left out of the economic boom enjoyed by downtown D.C., NoVA and the Connecticut/Wisconsin corridors -- as a result, the neighborhood has to pay for shuttle buses to the Rosslyn stop and city buses crowd M street at rush hour. (The Metro tunnel layouts preclude adding a Georgetown stop.)

---

As someone who grew up in the "rough" part of TP -- the 900 block of Englewood in the early 80s -- and went to private school with the children of Hope Valley (I & II)/Treyburn socialites, the violent tendencies and familial upheaval of "upper-middle" class whites were far scarier than anything I've seen at present-day Northgate Mall.

[David McMullen]

My corner of Trinity Park is actually pretty diverse. We've got both owner-occupied housing and rental housing on my block, and plenty of apartments just around the corner. We've got white, black, Asian, Hispanic, you name it. And we have a bus stop just up the hill from us on Duke Street. Don't judge all of TP by Watts Street - shoot, don't even judge all of Watts Street by Watts Street, because it's not as homogenous as you think.

[Toby]

Kevin - you wrote:

"Tying all of these together, though, is this sense that there is a moral desert to being able to separate oneself from the weight of society; that society's problems aren't necessarily something you want to have to deal with."

I assume you meant "moral dessert" -- a treat one eats after the main meal. But perhaps the mis-spelling is apropos...

Great post!

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

Kevin,

Great post! As a long time member of City-Data and a three year resident of North Raleigh am embarrassed and disgusted by some of the comments posted in response to this issue on that board. Thanks for such an in-depth look at this issue and the responses it created.

~ NRG

[aqdrinker]

@Dan S.

I have no real opinion on the effectiveness of concealed carry on violent crime in public spaces due to ignorance of any studies. That said, the two examples you cite don't seem informative to that debate. A person committing a murder-suicide and suicide bombers don't plan to survive their attacks.

[tina]

North_Raleigh_Guy (see his comments) is a perfect example of the suburban person who does not share the same attitudes as those Kevin found on a City Data Thread. I too am a suburbanite, South Durham (use to be an urbanite in another city) and I find the quotes Kevin found on City Data to be quite ignorant and sad. BUT I also don't for one second believe that the majority of suburbanites (be it Raleigh or South Durham) think that way. I know my neighbors down here don't. And while we have to bike or hike it about a mile to get to the closest bus stop, we all wish one was a bit closer so it would be easier to use the bus w/ our children. We don't live down here to be "isolated" from social issues. Most of us live down here because one or both household members work in RTP or Chapel Hill.

And btw Geoff Green, alot of us down here in South Durham get out and see "your side" of town quite often. In fact I was there today and will be there again tomorrow. When is the next time you'll be in our neck of the woods (South Durham)... maybe next time instead of just making assumptions about people because of where they live you can get to know them and find out they really are not all that different from you, even if we have a different zip code. In fact, I bet you have WAY MORE in common w/ North Raleigh Guy and myself than you think.

[Dan S.]

@aqdrinker: There isn't a whole lot of U.S. data on the efficacy of carrying firearms in public as a deterrent to violent crime, hence the Israeli example (that and I'm intimately familiar with INP and IDF data on violent crime and counter-terrorism tactics). Israel's one of the few democracies where a statistically significant portion of the population carries firearms day-to-day.

Googling "Mall Shooting Texas" (definitively non-scientific) hits on:
1. a shooting on May 18, 2008 -- an apparently random act of violence where a woman was shot in the face in the parking lot of a North Dallas shopping mall.
2. a June 7, 2008 fatal shooting of a suspected shoplifter at a Wal-Mart
3. an Oct 3, 2007 fatal shooting of two suspected burglars by a mall security guard armed with an automatic rifle
4. a 2003 attempted carjacking/murder of an NFL safety in a Houston mall parking lot
5. the aforementioned murder-suicide

[David Rollins]

Let me step back from the gun-nut rhetoric and attempt an impassioned analysis: the sociological literature on the effects of concealed carry legislation is inconclusive, with several studies on both sides of the issue. We've only had these laws for a decade, and each state has chosen to implement them differently so as to comply or (often) make it very difficult to get a permit. In Durham County, for example, there are only 700-odd permit holders; statewide there is one permit for every 52 households (http://www.ncrpa.org/faq/FranFuller_CCH.pdf).

With regards to Israel, anyone who has lived there (as I have) knows the drill upon entering any mall or shopping center:
(1) upon entry to the parking area the guard stops your car and asks you to open the glove box and/or trunk. If you are wearing a winter coat you must take it off. If you have a yellow license plate (indicating your car is registered in the west bank) you are usually subjected to extra scrutiny (many Israelis view arabs with something of the attitude of caryites towards black people).
(2) park and walk to the mall entrance, which has a very weak metal detector, i.e., you don't have to remove your cell phone or wallet. Those carrying guns simply place them on the counter, walk through the metal detector, then pick up their gun and continue shopping.

I have a couple of pictures of the process on my flickr page, from the big mall SW of Jerusalem. I should also note that in the Israeli arab towns that were traditionally sympathetic to the Zionist cause (e.g., Abu-Ghosh in the Jerusualem Hills), there is nary a hint of racism and everyone gets along fine. Wealthy Jews like to do their Saturday shopping in these towns, since everything else is closed on Saturday. Arab citizens carry guns as well, with the identical permitting process.

The whole point of concealed carry is to deter crime, not to bring wild west justice to the streets. Arab terrorists used to pull out the occasional AK-47 and blast away in downtown Tel-Aviv, but like 9/11 this trick only worked once -- when ordinary Israelis started packing the terrorists switched to suicide bombs.

The little old lady with a pistol in her purse is not going to shoot anyone at TTC -- it's the knowledge of concealed carry that deters violent crime, in my (admittedly biased) opinion. Every permit holder in NC has been educated on the "duty to flee" -- reach for your cell phone and not your gun.

[Wes]

"To the minds of these commenters, there seems to be an unwritten societal right that one should be able to buy their way out of -- or at least away from -- poverty. One ought to be able to move to a certain community, it seems, and rest in comfort knowing that the poor cannot live there."

My wife and I weren't born into wealth. We were the first in our families to go to college. We sacrificed so that we could both go to grad school and to save for a house. After many, many years we can afford a nice house in a nice area. So I ask you, why shouldn't we give our children a better life by insulating them from crime and failing schools?

Everyone should have a safe home and should be able to send their children to decent schools, but that isn't realistic and never will be.

[Wes]

The person who posted this was spot on:

"No offense but I don't have time for "utopian ideas". Tomorrow morning I have to wake up, got to work, provide for my family, and insure that they are SAFE. I'd rather focus on absolute truth. If you choose to turn a blind eye to it, thats your right"

[Jeff]

To Kevin: I agree with you that you can buy an inexpensive (under 150,000) house in TP or Watts/Hill. However, these houses are in those neighborhoods in name only. W/H includes the section between Guess Rd. and I85 behind the Drugstore. This is not what most people have in mind when they mention WH. Wes would be way to scared to live in one of those houses. If you think you can compare where you live to these other areas in your neighborhood, then I don't think you're being honest. Now, could these areas be a good place for young person to buy a fixer upper and try to flip it? Possibly. But, this type of "investment" isn't what most people have in mind when they speak about owning a home.

To Tina: The difference between me and you is so vast I don't know where to begin. I can't remember the last time I left Watts/Hillandale to go to your neck of the woods. I can't think of any reason I'd ever go. I've never been to Southpoint Mall.

To Wes: Dude. What are you so afraid of? Doesn't the TTC story show you that you and your family can't be "insulated"? As Yoda said, "Let go of your anger, Luke".

Best,

Jeff

[Wes]

Jeff, I lived in many different places when I was single that I wouldn't live now that I'm married and have children. Fear and anger have nothing to do with it. You're right that I can't totally insulate my family from crime but I'm not going to tempt fate either.

It is fairly obvious from the content of your post that you don't have children and probably aren't married. I assure you that your perspective will change if you are ever responsible for a child's well-being.

[KeepDurhamDifferent!]

Eh. I have a child, and while the inner city schools may suck according to your standards I'd rather my child grow up being exposed to people of a different skin colour and/or socioeconomic class. As an involved parent I'm sure her relative intelligence will just make her that much more special -- the admissions officers at Harvard love a good story of young hipster kid in the ghetto.

The hippies of OND, WHH, DP and TP suit my family just fine. Kids play in the street here just like they do in the cul-de-sacs of South Durham / Cary. The difference is that they know not to freak out when they see a black person.

[Wes]

David, she's your child to do with as you please but I doubt the intrinsic value of exposing children to diverse groups of people. I work with plenty of people who went to boarding school, attended private universities, and then went to work at investment banks, consulting, and law firms. They don't appear to be any worse off for having lived a priviliged life.

If your daughter can ignore the classroom distractions, and get a solid education from the young, inexperienced teachers at her schools then I'm sure that Harvard will welcome her with open arms.

[tina]

Oh Jeff, I know you because I use to be you in a city, more urban and hip than Watts/Hillandale. I'm thankful I can see both sides now.

[James]

The problem with allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed is that it puts a dangerous weapon in the hands of someone who may or may not be capable of knowing when it is proper to use it.

Picture the TTC brawl. Law abider #1 decides that he has a right to draw his weapon to defend himself. Gang members, not being law abiding by definition, see said gun and draw their own weapons. A fist fight becomes a gun fight. Bystanders get shot, possibly killed. Even if law abider is actually correct in his assumption of right to draw, people get hurt. A gun escalates a dangerous situation to an even worse one.

Besides, weren't there police on site? Isn't it THEIR responsibility to carry guns? If they didn't see the reason to draw them, why should we expect a normal citizen armed with the bare minimum of training to decide better than the highly trained, state sanctioned police force?

Wes: You're absolutely within your right to demand that your children get the best education, the safest schools, etc. But the problem is that your children have to live in a world where there are children who don't have those things. Whose lives are lessened and made less hopeful, less potentially excellent by that lack. Where those children may see a life of crime as being a more rational choice than a life of deprivation in a world increasingly governed by a superclass and an underclass. Why not insist that all children recieve the right to have those excellent schools, those safe places? End the threat by ending the conditions that cause that threat. It may be a utopia, but it's a viable one, one that we could leave to our children if we're willing to work for it. Or we can think only of our own children and leave them a world where while they might succeed, they'll do so in a world increasingly filled with desperate people who commit crimes because they have no hope.

[Wes]

Why not insist that all children recieve the right to have those excellent schools, those safe places? That would be great, but until then I have to do what is best for my family. My children only get one shot at a decent education adn I can't throw them under a bus for my ideals.

[Jeff]

Wes: I have two children and a loving wife. Where do your children go to school? I taught in Chapel Hill City Schools for 8 years. You don't honestly think that some public schools in Durham will do a better job of educating your child than others? I've seen it from the inside. Take a look at the performance of minorities in the "excellent" Chapel Hill School System. The belief that suburban schools are better is the all time biggest myth perpetuated by suburbia. A child's parents (and their wealth, values, and SKIN color) are the biggest determiner of how well your child will perform whether they are at Watts, Easley, Friends School or Durham Academy.

Tina: You've really got me going now. Why do you insist on trying to win "cool" points. I never said you weren't hip just that I'd never, ever want to live near, around, or with you. What's the matter with that?

Best,

Jeff

[Wes]

Jeff, You don't honestly think that Riverside is going to challenge a student in the same that that Durham Academy does, do you?

[Jeff]

Wes: Are you serious? I've worked with numerous students who attended Durham Academy, Riverside, East Chapel Hill, Jordan, and many of the other area high schools. I can honestly say that yes-- Riverside will challenge a student in a much better way than Durham Academy! Check out the list of schools where the top students from Riverside and Jordan go. Now, almost all of the students from DA go to "good" schools-- WAKE UP, their parents are LOADED!! Private universities love to get these kids with parents willing to pay the full tuition. I don't believe in judging a HS soley by where their graduates matriculate. I'd much rather employ a solid, grounded, and smart Riverside kid rather than an arrogant lacrosse playin', Treyburn Country Clubbin', Smith Island vacationin', blow snortin' punk from DA any day of the year.

Best,
Jeff

[Wes]

It sounds like you're the one with the chip on your shoulder, Jeff.

[tina]

"You've really got me going now. Why do you insist on trying to win "cool" points. I never said you weren't hip just that I'd never, ever want to live near, around, or with you. What's the matter with that?"

Jeff, I'm not looking for cool points.... they do me no good. The problem is if one does not leave his/her neighborhood then one does not know what life is like on the other side of the fence. Don't put everyone in the burbs in the same box, we're not all the same. Just like everyone who lives in urban areas are not all the same. When we get out of our comfort zones and start being a real community (not just within our own neighborhoods & subdivisions) then we see that we're not all that different from one another.

[chris]

The new chancellor of UNC, Holden Thorp, is a product of Fayetteville public schools. How the hell did that happen? He must have received a terrible education there . . .

[Bull City Rising]

Well... I didn't exactly expect this to kick off some kind of urb vs. suburb debate, but since it's here, let me clarify:

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the kind of reactions quoted in the post reflect the thoughts of all suburbanites. I agree with NRG and Tina -- there are many people who live in more suburban areas not due to a fear of the city, but just for other life reasons.

My point in bringing up the subject wasn't to create a suburb/city debate. My point instead was to talk about the root cause I see of much of the Durham-bashing that takes place in the community -- bashing that has the same roots, it seems, as much of the panic over the TTC events this weekend.

Wes: I don't dispute your right to live the way you want to. But I do find it disappointing that *you* seem to be assuming that parents who love their kids couldn't possibly want to live in an urban setting, go to public schools, etc.

You want your kids to be "insulated," to use your phraseology -- by which I'm assuming you are making decisions well beyond where they live? Fine. But don't impugn people who choose to raise their children in cities. I know plenty of families with great kids growing up in an urban area.

And what's with your assumptions about privilege and success? Go talk to John Lyon, the valedictorian at Hillside, on his way to Harvard on a full scholarship. Or the brilliant young Jordan High graduate who won the Intel prize this year and is on her way to Princeton(?)

There are assumptions you are making, Wes, about not just the life you choose to lead but that which others do, too. That's more than a little short-sighted.

[Wes]

I went to a very good, suburban NC public school with an IB program. In my graduating class of 400 students about 30 of us went to UNC, 8 to Duke, and a few went to schools like the USNA, USMA, Notre Dame, Harvard, Brown, Cornell, Davidson, Wake Forest, Georgetown, etc. That's all well and good but I can tell you from personal experience that even the best public schools don't necessarily provide the academic rigor that's needed to excel at a selective college.

You're right, Kevin, that I have been a little judgemental. Please know that my vitrol was directed at Jeff and not the rest of you. For the record I live in a 1930s streetcar suburb. ;) It's hardly the gated community that I'm sure you imagined. My children are in a very good public elementary school but I may put them in private school for middle school and beyond.

[mcdemc]

Wes (and anyone else who thinks private schools are the answer): Stay involved in your children's lives, nurture their interests, help them explore the world and stay personally engaged in their education and you won't ever have to worry about where you send your kids to school because it won't matter.

If you really want to pay more money for an education, donate the tuition you would be paying to a private school to a public school your children can attend.

Quoting Wes...
"She's your child to do with as you please but I doubt the intrinsic value of exposing children to diverse groups of people. I work with plenty of people who went to boarding school, attended private universities, and then went to work at investment banks, consulting, and law firms. They don't appear to be any worse off for having lived a priviliged life."

With this kind of thinking, I'm surprised you're not sending your kids to an all-white school where they are taught how to abuse prescription drugs, funded to abuse illegal drugs, and make superficial connections with people because you never really know if folks are more interested in you or your money. Heck, what could diversity do to ensure your kids are well-balanced, have diverse perspectives, and don't become bigots because they don't understand the plight of diverse populations? (sensationalism intended)

And what happens when your children have to make decisions for themselves? Is money going to make those decisions for them? How about private school? How about you?

All I'm saying (to everyone reading this) is...please raise open-minded children who are not ignorant and not bigots and embrace that America and the world are diverse places and you as parents can help them explore it all.