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December 17, 2007

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LBR

I can't even begin to imagine that particular post would be deemed "completely inappropriate and uncalled for." So much so that I had to read Will's comment three or four times to determine whether or not it was sincere or a parody of outraged commentors. (Confession: I'm still not sure.) Where was all that outrage when Jo up there was insulting people, as opposed to insulting a paragraph of someone's comment?

While I'm not ready to burn the publisher at the stake the way some people seem to be, I do feel like this circles back to the Chipotle discussion in some ways. Most notably, I'm still amazed that people feel it necessary, or even possible, to view every new endeavor as starting from a neutral ground, even if there's information to suggest that isn't the case.

Yes, it's true that no one has seen this publication yet. Is it really stretching to assume some things about based on 1) other publications in its category and 2) another publication produced *by the same publisher*? Obviously some here would disagree, but I don't think it's a stretch at all. Those factors won't tell you exactly what the magazine will be, but I think they can inform to reasonable degree, and the publisher certainly hasn't posted anything that makes me believe otherwise.

Will

LBR - My point is that if we really want open dialog that people should feel that they are able to comment on a topic without being personally assaulted. And Durhamfood's words can arguably be seen as such. That could amount to coerced censorship. You're right though - many of the previous comments were (in my view) inappropriate. I guess I'd reached a saturation/tipping point and didn't take the time to reread all the comments from the previous days and aggregate them in my response.

BCR has reached a critical mass and is a very important part of the Durham fabric - both in Kevin as the publisher and in the conversation that results in the comments. To continue to be valuable everyone needs to feel able to comment and add to the conversation.

Natalie

Can I invoke Godwin's Law on Corporate America invading Durham?

Will

NAZIS!!! :)

B.C.Visitor

I was quite surprised to read DurhamFood's nonsensical and presumptuous diatribe. I guess if I had joined DurhamFood's bashing endeavors of a sight unseen publication before it hit the stands, my commentary would have been favored. But I'm not that way... I'd like to give the publication a chance.

Try turning your blog into a printed publication and see what it takes, DurhamFood. It's a risk. Just like any business. Magazines especially. You say that "advertising revenues are almost guaranteed to be huge." My words were based on hope and confidence that people will do the right thing. What are your words based on? Where are you getting your information? What businesses in Durham are guaranteed to advertise in this publication? And if businesses of Durham are advertising, isn't that a good thing for these going concerns?

As I said, my commentary was one of hopeful confidence that based on Dan's generous feedback (for which he did not need to post); the publication will make an attempt to cover the many different flavors of Durham. Surely, with positive community feedback, their editorial direction may take it in the right direction that we could all embrace. And much like posting here in BCR, we can post to the editors. Dan has already shown that they are willing to listen by posting here... so write him! He left his bloody email address on his post!

So, if you're so upset about this new venture, give yourself a break and refrain from commentary especially if you cannot offer productive dialogue, DurhamFood. Or are negative judgment calls the Durham way? I think not. I think it's just you (but, then again, you might be just having a bad day).

By the way, Durham-I-don’t-market-to-the-wealthy-in-my-blog-Food, I visit BCR like I visit many other sites and blogs (hence, the "Visitor" bit). However, I live and pay taxes here in Durham. So leave your presumptuous conclusions at the door and be a little kinder to your neighbors since being a negative naysayer is not helping the city of Durham one bit (oh yeah, I know... I stooped down to your lower level, you child! You pissed me off! But, I'll get over it). >:|

Btw, DurhamFood, I do like your blog and read it often. Has a nice layout, too (especially the header design). :)

LBR

Will - See, this is why I still can't quite grasp that you're being sincere. A criticism of someone's comment (that is, of the comment itself, and not of the person) is just so very far away from a personal attack. (And I'm assuming you meant attack, and not assault, as I think the ability to punch someone over TCP/IP is still in the works . . .)

Since you used the same criticism of durhamfood in your next post, does that mean you're attacking her? Forcing her to be censored? (See how silly this gets?) It's funny that you mention "coerced censorship," since it seems you're the only person who's actually told someone to take their words somewhere else.

Lastly:
"To continue to be valuable everyone needs to feel able to comment and add to the conversation."

If a topic turns to debate, a person is likely going to need to feel comfortable debating and having their points criticized to join the conversation. If someone isn't, I don't think anyone "owes" them a free pass on critical thinking. It's one thing to feel unwelcome posting your opinions because people attack and personally insult *you*; it's quite another to feel like you can't post your opinions because you don't feel like having to defend what you've written.

KeepTheBabyJamieLynn

"give yourself a break and refrain from commentary especially if you cannot offer productive dialogue"

Do all blog comments have to foster productive dialogue? Is this a requirement now? It's not as if the BCR comments are being written by the same fine folks who spend their days dropping pearls of wisdom in the WRAL.com comments section. Yet.

Will

I hadn't planned to post again to this thread BUT - quite by accident - I just came across an online guide to blog comments and felt it must be a sign :) I'm posting a few of their recommendations - please visit this link to read all 12. http://lifehacker.com/software/top/special-lifehackers-guide-to-weblog-comments-126654.php

-Remember that nobody likes a know-it-all.

The best kind of comments come from thoughtful, knowledgeable people who add more information about a topic. However, tongue-lashings from condescending smartypants will go over as well on someone's blog as they would in that someone's living room. Expect to get shown the door in the form of the delete button. When fact-checking, pointing out a typo or dead link or asserting a dissenting opinion, do it in a respectful, friendly way.

-Own your comment.

Anonymous commenting, while sometimes necessary, can be seen as cowardly. Build your identity and own your words by placing your name and weblog address on your comments wherever possible.

-Be courteous.

Chances are something someone says in a comment or post is going to irk you. Still, personal attacks are unacceptable, useless and can quickly degrade a discussion to a third grade "Yo Mama" flamefest. Resist the urge, and be respectful and objective at all times.

-Don't post when you're angry, upset, drunk or emotional.

There's no taking back a published blog comment - once you post, it's there for everyone to see and for Google to cache. Remember, you're not going to show your best face in the heat of an emotional moment. If you find yourself angrily typing a message into someone's blog comment box - STOP. Get up. Take a breath. Walk around. Give it a day. Revisit the thread when your head is clear. This goes doubly for public blog comments as it does for private e-mail messages.

-Do not feed or tease the trolls.

No matter how many articles like this get written, there will always be people who surf around the Internet and inject pointless vindictiveness into any available textarea. Don't let the terrorists win. Do NOT acknowledge these people with refutations, disagreements or even a mention of their screen name.

durhamfood

Those rules take half the fun out! ;)

Yo mama don't follow no rules!

BCRVisitor

"Do all blog comments have to foster productive dialogue? Is this a requirement now? It's not as if the BCR comments are being written by the same fine folks who spend their days dropping pearls of wisdom in the WRAL.com comments section. Yet."

So, true. But I find that it does happen enough. However, having 'productive' dialog is preferred. I don't see any point in the alternative else to provide an extreme viewpoint for comparison. So, even a non-productive comment can lead to a productive contribution.

As for you, Will... you're definitely on the right track and have provided examples that every blogger and responder could aspire to when posting. Unfortunately, as you noted, not everyone can follow your advice and will often resort to name calling or ridicule to help validate their response (since the content of that particular person's response is often not strong enough to prove credibility).

Fortunately, not all BCR posters are unproductive in their comments and I have often gained much insight in their supporting responses to Kevin's articles.

interested observer

Mr Shannon-
Is your editor the same Chrissy Beck who was with the Chapel Hill Cvb who worked hard to promote Chapel Hill instead of Durham? If so interesting choice . Also you talk about local how long have you lived in Chapel Hill- So I guess everyone is from Durham except you.
a term used for northerners after the civil war comes to mind. Guess you thought Durham was not the town you wanted to live in but okay to make money from
interested observer.

Danielle Jackson

Regarding part of the original comment that launched this string of messages: "Witness here in the western side of the Triangle the arrival of Fifteen 501 magazine, which highlights the 'family-friendly towns and verdant greenways ... thriving job market and energizing nightlife' of Orange, Chatham and Durham Counties. (One presumes that the Premiere Motorsports complex is not among their coverage topics, or Rougemont's teeming nightlife, for that matter.)"

As Editor of Fifteen501 magazine, I feel compelled to point out that Fifteen501 not only has been around since the summer of 2006, but it also is a publication that highlights many of the ongoing redevelopment efforts throughout Durham and other cities in the region. It is a lifestyle publication, but one that serves to connect readers with arts and culture, health, outdoor life, cooking, design, and travel - all things that are available to people of all backgrounds and incomes. Sure, there are stories on high-end developments and private schools, but that serves the readership. So do profiles of hiking trails. What's important is that we strike a balance to ensure that our readers - and advertisers - get as much as possible out of the experience.

In the past two years, Fifteen501 has helped to push the spotlight onto Durham, Chapel Hill, Hillsborough and surrounding towns. From features on Durham-based businesses to coverage of many annual events, including the Durham Blues Festival, Full Frame Documentary Film Festival and American Dance Festival, as well as spotlights on culinary treasures in town such as Four Square Restaurant, the magazine aims to reach all residents. Upcoming features on Durham’s revitalization efforts at its Central Park District, as well as a profile of Grammy-nominated artist – and Durham resident – Nnenna Freelon, also serve to enlighten readers across all boundaries.

As local magazines, our goal is and should be to inform and entertain readers. Our magazines aim to support the local business community. Likewise, advertisers support our magazines and the community.

Fifteen501 will continue to serve readership in Durham and surrounding communities by publishing well-rounded features on the people and organizations making a difference, no matter the lifestyle.

Dan Shannon

Just a quick note to "interested observer" --

Of all the media that serves just Durham, Durham Magazine is the only one that has a local owner. That includes the newspapers. I live here, or near here, and see my readers, writers and advertisers everyday. That's local.

FYI: Chrissy Beck is our associate publisher, not editor, though she'd probably be great at that, too. Chrissy, a long-time (14 years or something like that) Durham resident whose son goes to DPS, did work at the CH Chamber where she did a terrific job. Now she gets to help create a city magazine in her hometown. Good for her.

As for me, I've been enjoying Durham for years, but, you know, you can only live in one place at a time, and, no apologies, when we moved to CH it was for family reasons. As it happens, we're considering buying a downtown condo (maybe) when the kids leave for college next year. Anyway, I'm committed to working with Durham-based writers, artists and so on (I think they all deserve the business and get to write about their local scene, which is a pretty good deal, don't you think?) and I'm close to securing a lease on office space. Durham Magazine will likely contribute more to the economy than it takes out for a long while (though I hope not too long).

So, I sound a little defensive, but, Interested Observer, you might appreciate that someone is betting their money and time on Durham with a business that, if done right, can only help make it an even better place to live. You might find that our motives are not as shallow as you presume.

Regards,
Dan Shannon
danshannon@durhammag.com
933-1551

Phil

I just figured out what I didn't like about the original title to this blog, ""Durham Magazine" to "debut in April -- but which Durham?".

To me, the words, "which Durham?" suggest that there are only a few options, each of which is exclusive of the others. "Rich Durham" or "Working-Class Durham". "West Durham" or "East Durham". "Corporate Things or Home Grown Things". "The Durham of People Who Have Lived Here a Long Time" or "The Durham Experienced by Newcomers." "The Parts Phil Likes" or "The Parts Phil doesn't." You get the idea.

Perhaps a better title would have been "Which PARTS of Durham?" I think that this title would reflect BCR's attitude toward the question. Unfortunately, I think that the original title allowed or encouraged a few commenters to pick an all-or-nothing attitude toward the new magazine which is, of course, just one magazine, which will have to pick and choose what parts of the Durham story it wants to cover.

No one ought dream to represent (or tell the story of) all of Durham with any one publication (paper or blog). And accordingly, no one ought ask any one publication to be that comprehensive.

Of course I am stating the obvious. But sometimes the obvious gets forgotten and needs re-mentioning.

As I've re-read the above set of comments, it's apparent that while many posters disagree on the possible nature or impact of the new magazine, most everyone agrees with the idea that they'd like Durham to be a better rather than a worse place, and that they're willing to live and work here in a way to make it so.

So back to this magazine. Or any magazine. Or any club, restaurant, nonprofit, for-profit business, or family that wants to be here. I think our wish is that any such entity do more good for the community than bad.

Chad (politely) votes "no" on the Durham Magazine:

"Phil, with all respect for your desire to be fair -- I worked in marketing and advertising long enough to know that the term "lifestyle magazines" is nothing more than a euphemism for advertising-driven publications, beloved primarily by the real estate industry, and we have more than enough of that kind of fake media crowding out more worthy publications these days. They're contributing to a decline in literacy and only bolstering our consumer-driven society (which will likely be the downfall of us all when, soon, the only values that count will be those values that have dollar signs before and after that). Is it not enough that our entire government can now officially be bought and sold? Do we really need yet another glossy magazine created solely to sell things?"

To answer the last question: of course not. But if it's another glossy magazine that does a better job than others for telling some "real stories" about good things in Durham, while capturing the eyeballs of folks who are already pre-disposed to read magazines-full-of-ads, I'd have no complaints. Would that not be a "nick away, bit by bit" at the worst of what's out there?

Meanwhile, I gladly support other, non-mainstream publications (online or in print) that push quality stories about meaningful and non-consumer things. If anyone wants to start a high-quality local magazine that says, "all stories and all advertising will be about things that a <$100,000 household or <$500,000 business can do or buy," I'd gladly sign up as a sponsor (or maybe even as an advertiser).

Meanwhile, I'm going to look forward to reading the Durham magazine, writing letters to the publisher on what I think they ought keep/lose/add, and seeing what happens. I hope they live long and prosper while doing good things.

They'll need plenty of luck, even if everyone in town were already cheering for them. "It's a magazine targeted at the wealthy. Advertising revenues are almost guaranteed to be huge." Oh, if only such a statement were true...


downtown

Wow, Some of you guys are unreal! Who are you to decide for me if I'd like to read something a wee bit nicer than the Indy...with all its inks outta register focusing on "screw Bush" and debauchery. I wonder if the people here that are skeptical every took a step back, just one time, and thought you just may be the problem? If this mag did a story on Trivia Night at Bull McCabe's pub you'd still consider it an elitist publication because it's on nice paper. Better yet, "oh look Evan Longoria went to Tampa Bay and they put the article next to an ad for a Gazebo!-Facists!" Even if the ad was for Amish Barns on 70 in Durham.

Yet you'd be the same people that are quite proud to walk into whole foods on Broad St. and pay $9 for 3 ozs of salad. We can share the women, we can share the wine, we can share what we got of yours cause we done shared all of mine. Bunch of hypocrites.

greg

I love the magzine. It is new and finally but durham in a nice light. It is the greatest and I have been living here for over 15 years!!

tina

"As for me, I've been enjoying Durham for years, but, you know, you can only live in one place at a time, and, no apologies, when we moved to CH it was for family reasons. As it happens, we're considering buying a downtown condo (maybe) when the kids leave for college next year.
Dan Shannon
danshannon@durhammag.com
933-1551"

What this says to me is we moved to Chapel HIll because we didn't like our school options in Durham. But once the kiddos are done w/ public school we're ditching the high taxes of CH and high tailing it back to Durham.

No wonder the lastest Durham Magazine's school article was so biased toward private schools. Sure they are where Dan is getting his advertising dollars. But the article still read like a semi-glorified list. No real substance. I disliked the magazine after seeing they did not do Durham Public Schools justice by talking about the VERY liberal transfer policy, not just relating to Magnet schools but neighborhood schools as well. Several hundered students transfer to Jordan EVERY year.

After finding out he feld Durham to educate his children elsewhere, my opinion has plummetted even lower. IF you believe in a community you raise YOUR children in that community.

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