Brewpub to bypass Trinity Park -- will urbanism do the same?

An update from Sean Wilson on the brewpub concept discussed (vociferously) here last week: the old Trinity Community Church location is off the list of possible locations for his new brewery and maybe-restaurant/maybe-theater concept.

Last week's discussion with the Trinity Park 'hood association served as a good opportunity to float a trial balloon before immediate and more distant neighbors... a balloon that was shot down quicker than the Goodyear blimp flying over the NC State Fairgrounds on gun & ammo day.

The good news for the Bull City is this looks like it was just Wilson's opening move in an attempt to find a home for a concept that has drawn significant buzz among residents. Wilson says he has a second location under strong consideration, though that location is under wraps until firmed up a bit.

I'm glad to see this project looks to still be on for Durham. As a Trinity Park resident myself, though, I'm concerned that the fallout from the Chancellory debacle of the past year still impacts the 'hood like, well... like a reflex hammer striking the quadriceps tendon. Which is to say, a knee-jerk reaction against change and development.

Was this the right project for this location, and could concerns over noise and parking been addressed? The simple answer is, I don't know, and I don't think anyone really knows, not without more details from a developer, and more consideration from local residents. Even in the absence of more information, though, the answer was quick and short: no.

That it died such a quick death speaks volumes about where a shellshocked neighborhood -- one which is still struggling with the idea of a large condo project on one side of Watts, and one which still seeths (whether justified or not) at feeling like victims of a bait-and-switch when a 'boutique hotel' promised for the McPherson Hospital site morphed into that height of haute couture, a Residence Inn by Marriott.

So I hear where neighbors are coming from when any new development. But at the same time, I
think it would be a shame if the southern end of the neighborhood tries to dig a moat down Lamond, and Albermarle, and Watts as a way of saying, "Downtown Stay Out."

I haven't verified this with the Registrar of Deeds, but still, statistically speaking I doubt very many folks on the lower fifth-of-a-mile of the neighborhood moved into their domiciles before 1982 -- the year Brightleaf Square graced an old factory district with shops and dining, and began in Durham's characteristic herky-jerky fashion the renaissance of the City of Medicine's downtown.

Even if a few did (heck, my neighbor on N. Duke St. has lived in her house since the 1930s), they certainly weren't here before the Durham School of the Arts, nee Durham High School. Or the Liggett & Myers factory. Or Trinity College, a.k.a. Big Duke.

Let's face it, Trinity Park is an urban neighborhood. Most folks who move to it do so because they want to be able to walk to Brightleaf Square on a nice summer evening, or to bike to the Farmer's Market, or to be a short drive to one of our two adjacent freeways to get to jobs in the Park or Sprawleigh.

Anyone moving here to have a suburban experience, in short, picked the wrong place to live.

This doesn't mean that every project is going to work out for every streetcorner or that neighborhoods shouldn't be at the table for discussing concerns with developers. Projects in areas like Lamond & Gregson need to be sensitive to both the urban landscape and the neighborhood streetscape.

 

My fear, though, is that we're in a time when we consider only the preservation of the latter to be important. When we think that the on-street parking in front of our house is somehow deeded to us with our bungalow. When traffic in the streets is a uniformly bad thing.

When we forget that on Lamond, for instance, one whole end of a street is already zoned CG -- Commercial General. This ain't Levittown, guys. It's a real city, and you're living in the thick of it.

If we want Durham to succeed, we need to realize -- as I harp on over and over -- that it is not the Long Islanders and the Worcesterites and the Orange County folks who move to the Bull City. It is Manhattanites and Brooklynites and Cantabridgians and Chicagoans and Angelenos, and they're moving here in large part because they don't want to live in Cary, or Clayton, or God forbid Zebulon.

Running away from urbanity isn't the right answer. Fitting urbanity into our neighborhood context and finding the best of both worlds is. 

What I'd like to see -- and I'm actually hopeful something like this can happen when other controversies subside -- is to get neighbors and our part of the downtown community together to suss out what we do and don't want to see in our neck of the woods. Which means the denizens of Lamond, Watts and Gloria, yes. But it also means other Trinity Parkers, those of us up on Norton and Gregson and Dollar and Urban. And it means representatives from Brightleaf Square, and West Village, and Peabody Place. Perhaps even Duke.

Because we're all in this together, and we'll succeed or fail together.

Comments

[Lee Ann Tilley]

I was really hopeful that those representing neighborhood concerns with the Chancellory developer would be doing just that - defining how they want Lamond Street to look. They've clearly spelled out what they're against. With everything going on in "closed sessions," I don't know if progress is being made on that front or not.

Until then, I'm afraid we have our own little cul-de-sac just one block from Main Street.

[barry]

Kevin - i had a neighbor once weigh in against sidewalks in the 'hood because they would destroy its "suburban charm." Granted not every sidestreet in Durham needs sidewalks, but there's a lot of streets where they can literally be lifesavers.

Back to the brewpub, though. i checked out the 810 Minerva site that Sean mentioned last week. Boy, does that have a lot of potential. All in all, though, i think the Edge/Blayloc space has a lot of advantages, including location, as well as the opportunity to show off some of the tanks in a front window display. If i didn't like making beer too much to do it for a living, i'd think about putting a brewpub in that space myself.

[MarcusOne]

Unfortunately, Kevin, most transplants who move to Trinity Park and other neighborhoods north and west of downtown Durham want to bring the suburban cul-de-sec lifestyle with them, even if they've never experienced it before in the big city. They want to slow things down and keep things quiet, which has never been an "urban" characteristic. Although some have been looking for what you describe, a dense neighborhood with lots of activity within walking distance of a vibrant downtown, most are here looking for rapid property appreciation. They've discovered that these "urban" neighborhoods are the next big thing in real estate, and they just want to cash in like most everyone else.

The Belgian-style brewpub in the old church building would be a perfect fit as there is ample on-site parking. Tearing down the annex to the building would offer plenty other spots for suburbanites. The rest of the customer base would be expected to walk from their Trinity Park homes, would they not?? The lot is far too small to turn into a small Cameron Village, so what's the problem with traffic for ONE brewpub?

I have listened to people who want to slow down traffic on Duke street and Club boulevard, with the hope that one day the EEC will solve all their problems getting cars off these thoroughfares (which these ARE by the way), put up neat little traffic islands, speed humps, and neck-downs (all at taxpayer expense of course!). Then they can park anywhere, let their kids and dogs play in the street (which is actually ILLEGAL in Durham!), and shut down any noise-making activity in the neighborhood that threatens their property values, or at least their concept of what people value.

I guess I knew that this Urbanism concept would eventually come up against the profiteers who bring with them their typical suburban mindset. I'm afraid they are also the most vocal critics of anything outside the mainstream, like a neighborhood brewpub. I'm amazed the religious folks aren't up in arms about bringing the devil's drink to a former house of worship, and would rather the place decay into another eyesore.

Frankly, from what I read in several of the Durham neighborhood blogs, is that we've got too much of a good thing going on here, and it's not progressive urbanism that we thought we were getting after so much public and private investment. Pretty soon, you'll start seeing downtown itself transformed into a slow, quiet, "it's for the children" neighborhood once more and more people with that line of thinking move in to make a quick buck. What really irks me is the ease to which some of our self-appointed neighborhood leaders extract taxpayer funds to turn our major roads into quiet suburban cul-de-sacs, and the ease to which even the urbanists don't see the problem with that, because again, "It's for the children."

[Bull City Rising]

Marcus -- just FYI, I responded to your points over at this thread instead, where you also commented: http://www.bullcityrising.com/2007/06/trinity_park_wa.html#comment-72737632

[barry]

Marcus - i don't say this lightly, but that is one of the most clueless comments i've ever read about Durham.

[MarcusOne]

Barry, can you be more specific?

[barry]

I could, but i'm at work.

Let me just repost most of your last paragraph:
"Pretty soon, you'll start seeing downtown itself transformed into a slow, quiet, "it's for the children" neighborhood once more and more people with that line of thinking move in to make a quick buck. What really irks me is the ease to which some of our self-appointed neighborhood leaders extract taxpayer funds to turn our major roads into quiet suburban cul-de-sacs, and the ease to which even the urbanists don't see the problem with that, because again, "It's for the children.""

What do you mean by "once more" when referring to downtown being transformed into a "it's for the children" neighborhood? for that matter, what do you mean by an "it's for the children" neighborhood? What do you mean by "turning our major urban roads into quiet suburban cul-de-sacs?" I can actually give you an example of an urban road turned into a cul-de-sac, because i live on one. It happened back in 1987 or 1988. Because people were driving over 50 mph on a residential urban street. And everyone who lived on the block, not just "the children" were at risk.

Anyway, i'll post more over at my place tonight after i get home from teh Arts Council, and meeting withthe rest of my neighborhood's self-appointed leaders,, where we'll be congratulating ourselves at sucking taxpayer dollars fromthe city to install our new, permanent traffic circle.

[Michael Bacon]

I love the space at 810 Minerva, but you're not exactly in the thick of things there. If it were going to be mostly a brewery with sale of kegs elsewhere, with a small taproom/cafe, I'd say it's spot on, but I wonder if you'd ever get sufficient traffic for a full on brewpub.

I feel like I have to mention this building here:
http://endangereddurham.blogspot.com/2007/03/strangest-downtown-property-120-w.html
A brewpub in that place would be beyond cool.

[barry]

Michael - if you build it, they will come.

Being a little out of the way eliminates some of the noise problems. Once you know where it is, it's not hard to get to. And eventually, if it were successful, it might inspire other establishments to take a chance in that area as well.

Still, all said and done, i'd like to see something cool go into Blayloc's.

but whatever Sean decides to do, i'm willing to help him out. He did bring big beers into North Carolina, and he deserves a shot at making a go of this on his own terms.

Having toured the Duck-Rabbit brewery out in Farmville earlier this year, i can't imagine that sufficient space in downtown Durham can be acquired at a reasonable enough cost to make a brewery an economically feasible option.

[MarcusOne]

Barry: And you only prove my point. Where exactly is this new traffic circle you speak of? Will it directly benefit your neighborhood, or will it just add the to congestion for everyone else in the city? Is is a real traffic circle, you know the kind where you don't have to stop on your way around? It's good to see our tax money wasted once again, for the children, or for the benefit of a few. I only use that term because it's so easy to blackmail elected officials to spend any sum of money if the project can even remotely be tied to helping our children get across the street.

And your answer to people speeding in your neighborhood is to block off the street?? See, you're proving my point again that it's all about the self interests of a few over the many. Did those folks exhaust all the other options for traffic calming, or did they just say...okay, if we play our cards right with the folks at city hall, we can get us a cul-de-sac! To hell with anyone else who has to drive through the area!

[Michael Bacon]

Marcus, you're quickly winning me over -- to Barry's side.

What the heck is a "real traffic circle?" It's the kind that's been installed in central neighborhoods around the city, with the first installations spearheaded by my neighborhood association, Old West Durham. No, you don't have to stop, unless there's someone in the circle. Have you honestly not seen any of the dozen or so installed in Durham over the last seven years? Do you even live here?

The streets that were blocked off 20 years ago were done because that's the only traffic calming you could get in those days. I'm not sure how that proves your point. It was 1987 -- no one was even talking about "traffic calming," it was all about "traffic control." So you're beating on a straw man. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what traffic circles are supposed to do.

In short, do you have any idea what your talking about whatsoever?

[Michael Bacon]

Barry,

I'd hate to see what could be such a positive addition to the streetscape hiding in the woods off of Duke St. As far as affordable space, there's an architectural salvage place backing up to the DAP right now, with three empty buildings next to it. The Liberty Warehouse rents warehouse space for $2.50/square foot. It might not be in the historic district, but there's tons of spaces that a brewpub could occupy cheaply around downtown that would be more part of the urban fabric than hiding out on 810 Minerva. (I'm hesitant to say this, because I do hope Chet and Jen get a handsome return for all their hard work on that space.)

[Barry]

Michael - thanks. i don't think Marcus has a clue. The street i'm talking about that was blocked off back in the 80s is Shawnee St. wehre it used to intersect with Avondale at its north terminus. Cars would head south on Avondale and veer right onto Shawnee St, through a neighborhood that doesn't really connect to anything, at better than 50 mph. it's not a "thoroughfare." It's an urban neighborhood street that's barely 24 feet wide, and parking on both sides. It's a 25 mph street. For the record, i didn't move to Durham until 92, so this happened before my time. But had i lived here then, even not on this particular block, i would have supported it. Because there are too many people in this town who think the way Marcus does, that they can drive whatever the fuck speed they want on any road they want to.

As for the traffic circle, well, Christa, Joe, and i have been blogging about it for quite some time. Its whole purpose is to say to people who think that Markham Ave between Washington and Mangum, is a freeway "Hey, slow the fuck down, people live on this street. It's, you know, an urban street, not some rural two lane highway out in the boonies."

As for Marcus, hell, dude, if you think that protecting children is a waste of taxpayer dollars, you're not even worth the time it takes me to type this. You've made the same irrelevant point over and over, without making a single argument besides your convenience. And frankly, your convenience is not a compelling argument. My neighbor's kids safety, on the other hand, is.

On the brewpub topic, however, Liberty Arts may be $2.50 sq. ft. now, but i don't think it will be that for much longer. At least according to some folks i know who rent space there. Agreed that 810 Minerva is probably not the primo location for a brewpub. But 10 years down the road, i think it will be much more attractive. And i haven't even been inside of it, just driving by once the other day. I had no idea it was even there.

[Sean Wilson]

Wow, these comments are amazing. Thank you all.

Y'all have nailed down a lot of the key issues with brewing. Space utilization is a big deal...it's why a pure production brewery like Duck-Rabbit is in a rural area. Breweries are capital intensive and take up a fair amount of space. Not interested in having the public come in to enjoy your beer? Well, it's best to be in a utilitarian location.

But we're not interested in pure production. We'd love to create a place for all Durhamites (well, not Gerry Livingstone) to come hang out an have a beer or two. So no pure warehouse for us.

But it probably not a full-on restaurant, either. I worked for ten years in the restaurant world, including three years at Magnolia Grill and a short stint prior at Parizade. I love the service industry and get pulled into the lovely chaotic world of restaurants very easily. But I've realized I'd rather serve those restaurants with my life's passion (beer) than try and manage one...especially when there are so many good places to eat in Durham these days.

So the sites that we're strongly considering work primarily as a brewing facility with the added bonus of some on-site beer drinkin'. MB's "small taproom/cafe" idea. Maybe more.

More soon, I promise. Thank you all for the good wishes, leads, and opinions. I appreciate it more than a blog post can project. I'm sure the site we select won't be "perfect" -- but isn't that what we all love about Durham?

p.s. I was just kidding about Gerry Livingstone. He's alright.

[anon]

Hey Marcus,

Do you know how many pedestrians and motorists have been killed on Duke and Gregson Streets in the last few years because of speeding cars? You think slowing down traffic that is going well above the posted speed limit is an assault on Durham's urbanism? If anything, the suburbs are about speeding traffic on to arterial roads to keep cars moving. Urban areas are meant to accomodate people and vehicles. The next time a pedestrian is ripped to pieces while crossing Duke street, we'll make sure they clean it up quickly for you so you can be the next vehicle to blow right through.

Sometimes I wish I could be ignorant so I wouldn't have to care so much...

[mike]

Sorry to take away from Sean's wonderful idea we are hoping happens, but I agree Marcus does not make a lick of sense. His whole crap about "you just proved my point" which he repeated twice is a complete farce. Instead and more likely maybe Marcus proved Marcus's point in Marcus's own mind.

[weege]

Sean, sorry to hear that the Trinity Park location didn't work out. Have you considered the area east of the old DAP? There's currently a place for sale (609 Foster, I think) between Nu-Tread and the architectural salvage place that MB mentioned.

I drive through that area every afternoon on my way home from the downtown Y and it just seems ripe for redevelopment to me.